River Eden Tvirgin

[Deleted]

First post for a Tvirgin although been flyfishing for 40 years.

Bought my first T rod on Saturday. Invited to fish evening rise on R Eden on Sunday with only an hours notice. Flies hatching, zilch fish rising. Tried all sorts of nymphs and T style flies I'd tied quickly. One thump, that was it. My host fishing conventionally had same result, one fish tempted but not hooked.

Thoughts on Tenkara - interesting, would probably have benefitted from watching someone first re methods of fishing however easy to set up and get going thanks to videos on various sites. Didn't do furled leader any good when caught fly on a submerged branch when trying to swim nymph under a bush. Also think perhaps I was sold too long an f leader as a bit too long to hold off water. The shop appeared not to have the one recommended to go with the rod but said the longer one would do - mmmmmmm.

The fish I rose fair thumped the fly, great feeling through rod although could have easily been a toddler I guess. It's a learning curve.

[Paul G]

Good effort getting out there amongst it malcolm.

It is definitely worth trying a few types of lines until you find the ones that you like. For me, I find that level lines (using a very short casting stroke) give the best performance - and are generally much better for holding off the water than furled lines. With any conventionally tapered line (such as a furl) there is always a disproportionately heavy "butt" section that hangs down from the rod tip and pulls the line back towards the angler (unless the majority of it is floating on the water with the rod tip held low - but this loses many of the advantages of presentation that you can get with a high rod tip).

[Deleted]

Mmmmmm, I've obviously a lot to learn. There is more to this river/trout/Tenkara thing than meets the eye. Although I've been fly fishing for 40 years most of this has been in lochs for trout or rivers for sea trout (ive always found salmon boring although have had more opportunity than most). It's only recently that I've been trying this delicate river trout thing - dry and upstream nymph. Last year the fish made an absolute fool of me which is great. There's a lot more to learn, which is really great.
Thanks for your tips re the line. I will try next time.

[Paul G]

Some hopefully helpful tips and demos on the page on the link below (includes video):

www.discovertenkara.co.uk/about-tenkara/techniques-compilation/

[Deleted]

Paul
Just had a look in my lunch break. Will need to watch and absorb better tonight. Lots of good info. Thanks.

Am I correct in thinking the more line you can keep off the water the better? I think I will rethink the furled leader and try straight fluoro. Is there any mileage in trying a tapered nylon leader with an added Tippett? Sorry to keep asking questions. I am one of those who likes to get all the small details ironed out in my head first.

[Paul G]

The best way to be!!

(i.e. I'm exactly the same)

I'll post up a full response when I've had a good chance to gather my thoughts...

[Paul G]

Regarding tapered nylon; there is probably not very much to be gained from this approach over and above that which a tenkara rod would allow you to achieve just using a light level line (like a copolymer of the type that Dave Southall favours; i.e. "seastrike" or "red ice"). The advantages of copolymer are that it is easy to make it float if you want to lay some of it on the water and it can be easily held aloft off the water. Because you don't need the taper in order to get good turnover - it is probably gilding the lily to go to the trouble of making/buying a tapered monofilament line.

The drawback with copolymer is that it is more difficult to cast well (particularly into a breeze). Because it is less dense than fluorocarbon, it has a greater surface area for a given weight. This means that fluorocarbon cuts through the wind resistance much better.

The potential draw back with fluorocarbon (in heavier line weights) is that it can be (but not always) be more difficult to make it float if you need to lay some of it on the water. Myself and JP find that Payette paste actually does a good job in floating #3.5 fluorocarbon lines under most circumstances - on some rivers and in some conditions (choppy water? Lower surface tension due to water chemistry?) it can be more difficult to keep afloat. However, you can always go to a much lighter fluorocarbon (i.e. one that has a similar mass to the thicker copolymer line) which will be relatively easy to float but still with a much thinner diameter/wind resistance.

We are also experimenting with "hollow" and ridged fluorocarbon filaments at the moment (which float very well indeed) to see how their casting compares to light "solid" fluorocarbon. Early results show that the floatability is very good, the castability is fairly good - and there is a bit more coil memory with the hollow lines compared to 100% Japanese fluorocarbon. So, again, compromises to be made.

To answer the other part of your question, yes, where it is possible - you should hold as much of the casting line off the water as you can. The amount that can be held aloft depends on a combination of many factors. First of all the weight of the line (the lighter the line, the straighter you will tend to be able to keep it between the rod tip and the water's surface). Secondly, whether you are fishing a dry fly (very little "anchoring" effect in the water) versus either a weighted nymph or heavily-hackled "wet" fly (more "anchoring" with a greater resistance to being pulled towards the angler's high rod tip). Thirdly, the direction that the current is travelling in relative to the angler: Straight upstream can mean that to keep all the line off the water might mean that you will pull the fly slightly faster than the pace of the current - not necessarily a bad thing. Conversely, fishing downstream with a well-anchored fly can make it very easy to "pause and then drift" that fly with everything held off the water (even a good deal/all of the tippet if required). The intermediate angles between those two extremes will form a sliding scale of "resistance". Fourthly, wind direction and strength; casting with the wind makes it very easy to hold lots of line off the water (but if the wind is too strong it can pull the fly out of the water or ruin your "tracking" of the dead drift with the rod tip). Fifthly (and by no means leastly!) the length of the line relative to the rod; lines that are shorter than the rod can, by definition, always be held completely off the water without pulling the fly off line as you can hold the rod tip vertically over the position of the fly. However, when you need to cast beyond the rod tip (with any line - no matter what length) all of the previous factors come back into play.

Treating the water's surface tension like the clutch plates in your car's transmission will open up a huge amount to your presentation; the less line on the water the more you have "dipped" your clutch and the less traction the "engine" of the river's surface current can exert on your fly. The more line you lay on the water, the more you have let the clutch out and allowed that engine to propel your line and fly along at the speed of the surface current. Because the current varies in both lateral and vertical planes, you can get unnatural drag when your line is sitting in one current pace - and your fly is sitting in another.

Knowing how to play with that to get the effect that you want in your wet fly (as well as your dry fly) is the study of a lifetime; but allows you to do some brilliant things that the fish very much show their approval for!

[Paul G]

N.B. I should also have mentioned that there are significant advantages to being able to perform a "fly first" cast which means that you don't have to pick the line up off the water - it is already in the air when the fly lands!

"Fly first" means that the whole casting loop unrolls in the air and the first/only thing to hit the water is the fly. You can then choose whether you need to lay a little line on the water to "anchor" it in your desired position/rate of travel downstream.

[chriscreeler]

What a piece, there's no nonsense there: but you might find it (initially at least) easier and more enjoyable to use a heavier tapered line, foregoing some of the advantages stated by Paul, and still catch good numbers of fish. It's not obligatory to fish in the most efficient way.

Chris.

[Deleted]

And I thought Tenkara was a simple method of fishing!

Just like to thank you both for taking the trouble to pass on all that info. I will re read, digest, visit my local fishing shop and then get down to putting it into practice. I went to a local beck last night, watching the olives come off and then watching a superb brownie, for that size of stream, patrolling round a pool. I was stood against an alder with the fish right underneath me at times. I can't be much of an angler as I hadn't the heart to cast to it and possibly disturb its evening meal.

Thanks Paul /Chris, hopefully I'll become as Tenkara bonkers as you eventually.

Malc

[daves]

Hi there. Paul has given you a lot of useful info.. However I see little advantage of hollow fluorocarbon over a level line of similar diameter copolymer since they are the same diameter & density. In fact the copolymer is much cheeper & has less coil memory. For dry fly & general nymphing I like a line of 0.35mm or 0.38 mm Ultima Seastrike or Red Ice that is about 3' shorter than the rod with 3' of Stroft tippet ( I taper mine from 0.25 (8"), 0.20 (8") then about 2' of 0.12mm (6x). If nymphing I have a level tippet of 3 to 5' of 6x copolymer (Stroft). With this set up I can hold most of the line & tippet off the water.

As Paul says casting straight upstream makes it hard to hold line & tippet off the water. Where possible I like to fish up & across at 45 degrees or straight across & even downstream where I think I can get away with it without spooking the fish.

Hope this is of help.

Dave

[Deleted]

Dave
Everyone's input is one more piece in the puzzle but I guess this is one jigsaw that will take a long time, if ever, to finish. Many thanks. Hopefully get down the local tackle shop and pick up some Seastrike or Red Ice as this is a common theme to start with.
Cheers
Malc

[custheyder]

The diameter to weight ratio is the big thing for me. On the Isle of Man there is nearly always a bit of a breeze and the co-poly is far more difficult to handle. There are very expensive fluorocarbons out there, but then there are also more reasonably priced ones, like the Sunline BMS. I'm looking into alternative fluorocarbon and even as far as having something custom made.

If co-poly works for you then great, but I prefer the smaller diameter fluorocarbon.

Cust.

[Paul G]

In the spirit of throwing/keeping options in the mix - I would say that the hollow fluorocarbon that myself and JP are using seems to cast much better into a breeze than copolymer (although it is of greater diameter than "solid" fluoro of a comparable mass). However, it is easier to float than solid fluorocarbon - BUT, it does tend to have more line memory than the "softer" solid Japanese fluorocarbons (like Sunline and Yamatoyo).

Sometimes I would go for thinner "solid" fluoro, sometimes for hollow fluoro and sometimes the heavier solid fluoro is the right medicine for me.

Horses for courses (and personal preferences!).

All good stuff.

[Deleted]

Well I've eventually had my Tvirginity taken away. It's taken a while due to work, holidays, sons wedding and, dare I say, conventional flyfishing but tonight, on a burn near my Inverness home, several small brownies and 3 potential keepers made me a Tman! Big smiles. What a fight by the larger ones. All on a conventionally tied T wet fly with a partridge hackle so next time it's dries.

Brill