Tippet diameter.

[paul1966]

Given that trout have poor vision/focus do you think we could use stronger tippet material. I appreciate that a size 16 would not fish well on 10lb tippet due to the tethering affect I think it's called.

However if we could step up our tippet diameter say from 6x to 4x (5 to 6lb ) we could land fish far quicker. It would make hand lining the fish easier causing less stress to the fish.

I'm not sure of the answer. I was just wondering what your thoughts are, would the thicker diameter make for less takes?

[flatsghost]

Paul
I see your point about fish welfare for sure. On a practical level, when I started to fish Tenkara I was advised not to use over a 4lbs test line as it might lead to tip breakage as any heavier line might be too strong for the tip.
Maybe some of the other forum members will have thoughts on this. I certainly never use over 4 lbs or around 0.12.
I am interested to see how this thread develops!
Glyn

[daves]

I'd not risk more than 5x (4 to 4.8lb) tippet on any of my Tenkara rods & the lighter ones such as the Nissin Pro Spec 2 Way & Try 360 I'd be loath to use more than 6x (4lb) tippet.

If too strong tippet is used there is not only the risk of a broken rod but also of a permanently jammed tip. I've broken one rod trying to release a tip jammed up by a 3lb 8oz brown trout that bolted off in a situation where I wasn't able to follow. I carefully followed all the tried & tested methods to loosen it but to no avail.

I've successfully landed trout to just under 4lb & grayling to over 3lb on 5x tippet without the need for protracted playing of the fish.

I think we need to accept that true Tenkara rods are not designed for really big fish & that they have their limitations. I would never consider Tenkara fishing for trout on the Cumbrian Eden, Eamont or lower Lowther since there is a real chance of hooking a very large trout, however I'd feel pretty confident that I could land any grayling that I'm ever likely to catch on 5x tippet.

As for tippet thickness & presentation. Tippet stiffness is a significant factor in how freely our fly can move with the vagaries of the current & how much influence drag from that tippet that is in or on the water. High sticking with a Tenkara rod drastically reduces drag as most of the line & tippet can be held off the water but never all of it. Choice of tippet diameter is always a compromise between presentation, the ability to turn over a fly during the cast & the ability to land fish without break-offs. Last January whilst fishing in New Zealand I fished size 18 Willow Grubs (4 times bigger than the real thing) on 3x, 8lb tippet; the presentation was less than ideal but even with this tippet I lost a good number of fish in the willows that I had to fish amongst!!!!! Needless to say I didn't use a Tenkara rod!!!!!

[JP]

I can only echo what Dave has already said.

5X - 4lb tippet is virtually impossible to break with the pressure you can exert with a tenkara rod so going much heavier for the sake of it is only going to be risking potential rod damage.

Although trout have comparatively poor focus in their eyesight they are comparatively well attuned to judging movement. This means - although you may be able you get away with thicker tippet on the basis that the fish may not be able to see it too well - the difference that thicker tippet makes to the movement of the fly may be very obvious to a fish.

In my own experience (and from chatting with countless other top anglers I've been lucky enough to meet) the unnatural movement of a "tethered" fly can be the kiss of death for your presentation. This shouldn't be confused with the movement induced deliberately as part of a manipulated presentation - but even when manipulating flies, lighter tippet will have a "looser" more natural movement.

For most of my UK tenkara fishing I use 4lb or 3lb tippet (usually 4lb for wets and 3lb for dries). I have known certain circumstances where fishing very light tippet has been a necessity. On a trip to the Czech Republic in 2012 a group of four of us noticed that the fish were very finicky even to our best dry fly presentations. The type of water we were fishing tended to be fairly shallow glides with quite a lot of "micro-currents" causing almost imperceptible drag. I had a spool of very fine 0.08mm Stroft (2.2lb b/s) and found this had a dramatic effect on catch rate... so much so that the four of us ended up sharing one spool of Stroft for the remainder of our trip.

There are several videos of Paul G and I fishing in the Czech Republic on the Discover Tenkara website. If I recall correctly, in all of them we are using 0.08mm tippet.

[daves]

As JP notes there are times when fine tippet is required to get the best presentation. My 'go to' tippet is 6x (0.12mm, 4lb Stroft) for dry fly & nymphing. However with small flies (size 20 to 30) I'll use 7x (0.12mm, 3lb Stroft) & occasionally, like JP 0.08mm Stroft (the latter with a soft Tenkara rod). For big grayling & heavy nymphs in winter or big fish on big dry flies I use 5x, 4.8lb Stroft which as JP says is virtually impossible to break if you keep the butt of your Tenkara rod at right angles to the pull of the fish, thus using all the spring the rod has to absorb the pulls of the fish.

[paul1966]

Thanks for your replies I don't disagree with any of the above, I use 4 lb and 3 lb too. I have landed a 5lb 10oz sea trout on 4lb tippet using my Iwana. It never felt if was going to break me until I had to hand line it, I had to quickly release the line a number of times had I been using stronger tippet I think I would have landed it far quicker. I was fishing for trout at the time and not targeting big fish. I agree I think it is the tethering effect that causes the problem. I do like to fish the strongest tippet I can get away with.

I've asked this question a number of times but has anyone ever had their rod broken by a fish?

Dave
I have now broken two tips ( the ony tips I've ever broken) both after they became jammed due to snagging the trees above, I snapped the 2nd section both times trying to close the rod down on the river bank. However when I've had the patients to take the jammed top section home, I've always managed to free it by pouring boiling water over the stuck section this was after trying the elastic band trick which has never worked for me. If all else fails give it a try.

Another point on tip sections jamming I have a couple of cheap Tenkaka type rods which I've absolutely hammered in the sea snagging sea weed etc The tips never jam. I think it's due to the facted the finish is not as good as more expensive rods and the wrapped carbon makes a ridged effect. It gives you something to grip and also less surface area to jam. Maybe all tips should be ridged.

[Paul G]

Another thing on tippet strength is knot choice. We've yet to have a challenger beat the Palomar loop that we use to attach both fly and also tying tippet to level line. It is like doubling the strength of your line for the same diameter...
More here, www.discovertenkara.co.uk/world-series-of-knots-n-b-a-world-series-that-includes-countries-outside-of-usa-as-well/

Includes tying instruction video.

[Paul G]

Tying instruction video separately.


JP full speed demo on-stream.

[paul1966]

I just tested the Palomar not up against my favourite not the penny knot. A tug of war between two sets of forceps and the Palomar won 3 out of 3. I then tied a Palomar to both sides and the line broke in the middle both knots stayed intact. As you've probably all guessed by now I'm a sad git I quite often play knot wars in the closed season. Very good knot though.

[JP]

Jan 10, 2014 23:48:55 GMT paul1966 said:

I just tested the Palomar not up against my favourite not the penny knot. A tug of war between two sets of forceps and the Palomar won 3 out of 3. I then tied a Palomar to both sides and the line broke in the middle both knots stayed intact. As you've probably all guessed by now I'm a sad git I quite often play knot wars in the closed season. Very good knot though.

I've been there Paul

A few years ago I built a "knot testing rig" with a small cradle suspended by terminal tackle/knots under a tripod. The cradle allowed the gradual addition of small strips of roofing lead until the knot/line failed. The whole cradle was then weighed to give the actual breaking strain achieved.

I tested pretty much all of the popular fishing knots and the biggest revelation was the Palomar knot! It out performed everything else and maintained close to 100% of the stated breaking strain of most tippet materials I tested.

One of the worst performing knots was the half blood knot (AND tucked half blood knot). Believe it or not if you use this knot you are often sacrificing around 40% of your tippet breaking strain. This means most people who use 4lb tippet and half blood knots are actually fishing closer to 2lb than 4lb!!!

Another revelation was the knots for loops and joints. Perhaps the most common knot for jointing tippet or forming a loop is the 2 or 3 turn water knot (AKA surgeon's knot/loop). This also loses a significant amount of breaking strain often close to being as bad as half blood knots. By far the best alternative to the water/surgeon's knot is the figure 8 knot/loop (again achieving close to the stated breaking strain of the tippet; although not quite as strong as the Palomar).

After learning about the Japanese methods of joining level line and tippet I thought "wouldn't the Palomar knot work for that?" and it did! It's the strongest joint I've ever been able to achieve... most of the time the tippet breaks somewhere in the middle rather than at the knot.

One last thing - don't underestimate the effect that your choice of tippet material can have on knot strength and achievable breaking strain. Some materials have a stated breaking strain way over their achievable knot strength (even when using the Palomar).

Consistent good performers for me have been Stroft ABR and Hardy Copolymer (the latter being the new stuff - they changed the product a few years back). I'm also testing some new Drennan line which I'm finding rather nice (it also comes on tiny spools )