Level line - size, diameter and wieght

[hobgoblin]

If I am using my 12' Iwana with 11' of No.4 level line and a yard of tippet and this casts well, if want more reach and increase the lenght of my level line, say to 14' should I drop down a line size or two so that I have the same mass in the air when casting.

It is just a question in my head and theoretically it would make sense, I did some simple maths using the scenario above and data from products supplied by Cust and 11' of no.4 has approx. the same mass/weight as 14' of No.2.

Or :-

Do you just use a longer line of the same size and slow down your casting stroke, or does it not make much difference with the extra length ?

Hobgoblin

[Deleted]

I use 3.5 for my lines that are equal to or slightly longer than the rod. For most of my 3.6m rods I use 3.5 level line up to about 16'. Any longer than that, I drop my line down to 2.5. The lighter line is easier to keep up off of the water.

If I am using a line shorter than my rod, I go up in line size to 4.5. The added mass helps the rod tip to load and release energy more efficiently. At least that seems to work well for me.

One caveat about long 2.5-2.0 lines, they are more difficult to cast in windy conditions, but on a nice calm day, they are sure nice to cast.

John

[chriscreeler]

'Anything Goes.'

[JP]

Hi Hobgoblin,

I agree with johnnyv145 and I find myself using similar setups to his level line lengths and weights.

It's hard to give a list of dos and don'ts for level lines as (just like chriscreeler says, "anything goes").

At the heaviest end, I've cast 30' of #5 level line on my Iwana without too much trouble but the practicalities of fishing with that set up make it limited to very specific circumstances.

As you go longer you end up with more of a belly in the line; obviously the mass of the line will have an effect and this should be taken into consideration. If you're wanting to fish drag free drifts on slow flowing streams a long heavy line may count against you BUT if you're fishing at long range into fast flowing water with a heavily manipulated presentation a heavier line won't be too much of a hindrance (and if you're casting into a wind, would even be helpful).

There really is no substitute for getting out and trying a few different lines to see what suits you best... it's a bit like asking someone to tell you what beer you'll like best... you never really know 'till YOU try it

[Paul G]

I would certainly say that reducing the "mass per unit length" (i.e. lower diameter) helps to hold more line off the water - and is consequently a great advantage when fishing a longer line. This is the basis of Masami Sakakibara's overall approach (along with perfectly-honed casting technique!).

I think that I am also right in saying that - for a line of constant diameter - increasing the length should increase the mass by a greater proportion than the increase in the area affected by friction/wind resistance. This should be true since mass increases as a cubic function of length whilst surface area is a squared function.

In its simplest terms that should mean that you can achieve the same casting mass attached to the rod tip whether you have a short length of heavy line or a longer length of a lighter line. There may well be quite a few "non-linear" confounding factors that complicate things a bit as length increases and/or diameter decreases though - and as John V mentions; wind is the great enemy of light lines. To illustrate this, if you have lines of the same length, by increasing diameter - you should (again) increase the mass by a greater proportion than the wind resistance). By contrast, if you try to increase the mass by having a longer length of light line - there is just a much greater length of it that is held in the air - either during or after casting - that greater length is "available" to be affected by the wind.

Having the mass concentrated in a shorter area makes it a bit more "forgiving" of less than perfect technique - as you can still get most of the full length of line moving through the air even if your casting loop is a bit "wiggly" or "open". The same is not true when you have to get a long length of wispy line all moving in a concerted fashion! Any wiggles or imperfections dissipate the force of your cast into directions other than the one that you need the whole line to be travelling straight towards

The last point is one thing that Sakakibara-san's technique illustrates to a high degree; his daily practice over years and years have made his casting loops narrow, fast, pointy and accurate!!

[custheyder]

Although I'm producing ready made level lines there is no real substitute for getting a spool and making up your own. You also have the option to experiment by joining lines to make a taper heavy to lighter.

My preferred line weight is a 3# and slightly longer than the rod. However is there is a breeze I increase to a #4. When there is no wind the #2 is sublime and holds off the water beautifully.

As has been said the longer the line the easier it is to hold the lighter lines off the water. I have also found that with longer lines dropping a line weight for a longer line does not always work due to the increased air resistance of the line. I am experimenting with extensions of lighter line barrel knotted to the end of the heavier line. Loop to loop hinges something shocking. The jury is still out.

There is an 8m tapered fluorocarbon fishing line available but it is clear. The addition of a coloured tip might be worth investigating for greater length presentations.

Cust.

[daves]

I am a short-line addict, virtually never using a line plus tippet combination more than 2' longer than the rod. This allows me to keep virtually all the line & tippet off the water, even with small dry flies. I usually use 0.35 mm diameter copolymer level line, equivalent of a 2.5 weight line, but do use fluorocarbon lines up to 5 weight & furled leaders at times. I find with their soft tips that most Tenkara rods will cope well with a wide range of line weights. Certainly in windy conditions the heavier fluorocarbon lines cast better but even when greased the heavier fluorocarbon lines sink, impeding line control & casting, plus snagging on submerged objects if va long line is used.

Dave.

[hobgoblin]

Thanks for taking the time to air you views, I've read what you all have to say and taken all your points onboard.

Hobgobllin

[daves]

You might find the following tables on lines of some use. I worked out the equivalent diameters using the average specific gravity of copolymer (1.1) & fluorocarbon (1.8).
Line Weight   Fluorocarbon diameter mm   Copolymer diameter mm
2                        0.235                            0.301
3                        0.285                            0.365
4                        0.330                            0.422
5                        0.370                            0.473
6                        0.405                            0.522

I prefer copolymer lines because when greased they will float, an important thing in situations where it is impossible to hold the line off the water. The table below shows the diameters of various breaking strains of Ultima Sea Strike and Red Ice copolymer sea lines (both Hi-viz lines in yellow and red).

Breaking Strain lb Diameter mm
15                         0.35
18                         0.38
20                         0.40
25                         0.45
30                         0.50

Dave

[paul1966]

Which diameter mono line would be the equivalent of a 3.5# fluoro line?

[daves]

If you look at the table above you'll see that a 3.5 line is equivalent to about 0.4 mm diameter copolymer. I generally fish copolymer level lines of 0.35 mm for calmish conditions & 0.38 mm in breezier conditions or with stiffer rods.

Dave

[paul1966]

Thanks Daves that's really useful info, I should have paid more attention to your line chart I can see how it works now.

[daves]

Glad it was of use.

Dave

[paul1966]

I've just discovered a fluorocarbon called spiderwire its 100% fluoro and casts as well if not better than Hi viz fluoro. Obviously the big disadvantage it's hard to see as it's clear. However I've found that if you use 7ft of fluoro spiderwire 12 lb .33mm and 5ft of coloured mono it makes a great level line that's easy to cast, see and the tip does'nt sink when your dry fly fishing. The best part is it's under £6 for 200 yards

www.whitbyanglingsupplies.com/Spiderwire-EZ-Fluorocarbon-200yds