Does size matter?

[Simon]

Here’s a topic that I have not seen mentioned or talked about much in the world of Tenkara. It’s all about size? From what I have seen; read or talked about the size of a Tenkara fly tends to be on the LARGE size. Most seem to be around a size 10 – 12, why is this?
I can understand that on fast running streams larger flies should tend to sink faster along with their actual size giving the target fish a chance of seeing a fast moving target, however once you get to slower, clearer waters does the size of the fly than become a liability?





I have for quite a while now been using and tying flies down to size 24 to use on the slower waters that Sonia and I tend to fish the most. The one fly approach seems to stick with one fly but in different colours, I think that size should also be taken into account depending on the speed of the water along with the clarity. We have had much more success with the micro Tenkara style flies so is there something we can learn from this? Does size matter as they say? Looking forward to the ongoing discussion. By the way they are real killers on still waters just lightly greased in the surface film.

Simon.

[pedros]

Good question Simon,

My take is that the reverse hackle on T style flies best suits the wet flies and in larger sizes where manipulation of the fly 'livens' it up. Going smaller then the lack of mass in the fly makes it that much harder to work so more of a dead drift approach - in that case tie the smaller flies however you want: traditional hackle; parachute hackle etc...

[orangeotter]

I would say that your observations are correct Simon - I fish a Sakasa Kebari almost exclusively in approximations of s14/12 which work well in the typical faster Tenkara type water but not so well in smoother flows, particularly when cast to rising fish. I do intend to drop down a size or two to see if that helps. I do remember Ishigaki San making the point that the size needs to be relevant to the insect hatching at the time, even if the pattern remains similar.

Much to learn !

[phil]

Given that we know that the origins of the kebari tied by the commercial fisherman came from the resources they had to hand, namely sewing needles. Perhaps we can speculate on a concept well known in design and innovation studies called path dependency.

In very general terms it means that we tend to continue to use the same forms, dimensions, etc, from an original pattern even though the process of manufacture changes or innovation moves on. Classic examples of path dependency include the gauge of railways to present day going back to the carriage builders in the Roman era. The carriage builders remained steadfast to the gauge or width of ox drawn carriages and applied it to the carriages built in the steam era therefore determining the track gauge used to this day. There are many more examples like this in our world.

So, perhaps one of the reasons, not the only reason I hasten to add, for large kebari could be connected to the use of sewing needles.

Cheers

Phil

[Paul G]

For the Japanese "one fly" or "just a few fly" pattern anglers; size is the main thing that they vary according to conditions/mood of the fish (i.e. instead of changing fly patter, they just change the size).

Dr. Ishigaki touches on it in his presentation(full 20 minute video available here for free: www.discovertenkara.co.uk/video-of-dr-ishigakis-presentation-from-september-2013/)


During one of our fishing trips he also mentioned that Amano-sensei doesn't change the size of hook he ties on when he wants a large or a small fly; he just uses a larger or smaller hackle to create the desired impression.

He also talks in our DVD about which conditions you would use larger and smaller flies - and also things that influence his choice of hackle material properties for different fishing scenarios.

[daves]

My observation is that on bouldery, food-poor, hill streams big flies work fine & fly size & pattern are generally relatively unimportant. However on rivers (& still waters) that have good hatches of small flies fly size can be quite critical. I must confess that I have only a relatively limited experience of fishing Sakasa Kebaris since I love dry fly fishing.

Even on the upper Tees there have been times when a size 14 or 16 Dry fly was refused but a size 18 or 20 accepted (when Iron Blues were emerging amongst Olive Uprights & Large Brook Duns. I suspect if I'd been fishing Sakasa Kebaris or Spiders I would have had the same problem of rejection of the larger sizes in this situation.

On my local still water, Wansford Lake, the Midge-feeders at the moment are rejecting any fly over a size 24, even when it is well presented.

When the grayling on the Yorks Derwent are fixated on Aphids it is essential to fish tiny flies (24 or smaller) to achieve consistent success.

[adric]

Does size matter? I think so? Phil’s point about transferring from one area of the world and ecosystem to another is valid. Not many of us fish classic mountain streams on the whole our topography is different. One other important point is that a manipulated Kebari may be closer to a lure than an imative fly.
Another point borne out by some river sampling today is that most of the food items are small and very small.
So let use explore using smaller flies and also try using forward facing hackles as well.

[flatsghost]

I would agree with the comments above. Richard I vividly remember when attending my initial Invertebrate monitoring course some time ago that our instructor said to us all that we would, following the course, look at our fly boxes and realise how big our artificials are when compared to the natural. How right he was!
So the points made on small flies are perfectly valid as are those concerning the type of waters fished which will influence size.
I have always been perplexed on the issue of short dressed flies as even though the dressing is small there is still a whole pile of hook on show! Or, do the fish concentrate on the dressed bit and not see the hook? But then again when you dress a really skinny buzzer pattern there is no doubt that the hook itself is part of the overall buzzer shape.
Maybe we should not search too hard for answers but just get on with fishing and enjoying ourselves!
Tight lines
Glyn

[paul1966]

I've caught the biggest wild brownies on my river accidentally while fishing for sea trout & salmon with big flies. I do fish flies down to size 18 tenkara style, I haven't got the skill or eye sight to tie any smaller. It would be interesting to fish a whole season with a size 14 kebari. I wonder if we would catch less or more, I know I'd spend more time fishing.

[cm_stewart]

Mar 20, 2014 13:20:47 GMT daves said:

My observation is that on bouldery, food-poor, hill streams big flies work fine & fly size & pattern are generally relatively unimportant. However on rivers (& still waters) that have good hatches of small flies fly size can be quite critical.

I firmly believe that people outside of Japan forget that tenkara was developed by practical people to use on a certain type of stream. Had tenkara been developed in England, there would not be any discussion about a "one fly" approach. If it had been developed on fertile rivers with multiple hatches of small flies, there would have been a multitude of different, hatch-matching tenkara flies and they would be small.

It would seem to me to make more sense to fish the flies that best fit the conditions at hand. Ancient tenkara anglers certainly would have.

For that matter, for British anglers who want to be true to tradition, why pick a Japanese tradition rather than your own? Where is the discussion of Charles Cotton's flies or David Webster's? The rods I can understand - telescopic graphite beats spliced hickory any day - but the flies? I am really a bit surprised that there has not been any apparent interest in the traditional (loop rod) British fly fishing.

[springerman]

Chris,

A lot of what you say is good sense. I like all that goes with Tenkara but when I first saw it I thought immediately of dry fly. We should fish the way that suits you best. What you enjoy.

Tight lines.

[paul1966]

I agree too the tenkara rod is perfect for the dry fly I also think it's ideal for up stream spider fishing which is the way I like to fish. I do like the challenge of the one fly aproach though and I think it could be quite liberating, I'm thinking of giving it a go this season.

[daves]

I fully agree with many of the comments made. I would never want to confine myself to just one style of fly or fishing. For me variety is the spice of life. Whilst I believe that we have a lot to learn from traditional Tenkara as Chris says David Webster's book is fascinating & suggests other ways to approach our fishing with Tenkara rods.

I must confess that dry fly is my favourite way to fish & Tenkara is perfect for achieving drag-free drifts in awkward flows & for applying subtle manipulations to give dry flies 'life' e.g. twitching Mayfly spinners to simulate their death throes.

[springerman]

I'm with you Dave but I still want to learn as much as I can about Tenkara. I am sure we all feel that way. Fascinating.

[phil]

Now a Loop Rod in the style described by David Webster and his description of line and rig would be interesting. Who know perhaps in a similar way that the fly fishing tradition of Valsesiana has begun to make a come back some enterprising individual or group will do the same for the Loop Rod?

Cheers

Phil