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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2013 23:30:12 GMT
Hello
I was wondering if someone could explain the diffrence between a furled line and level line, I know furled is taperd, but what the frick is level line I would like as much info as poss so I can wrap my head around the tackle I will need to start tenkara fishing again
Cheers mike
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Post by paul1966 on Aug 31, 2013 0:22:53 GMT
A furled line is easy to cast and I think a good line to use when you're starting off. A level line is just a length of mono or fluorocarbon 10 to 15lb which is harder to cast as it's much lighter but if you can learn to cast a level line well you'll catch more fish as a level line has much less sag/drag than a furled leader.
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Post by daves on Aug 31, 2013 7:08:02 GMT
To further what Paul says, a furled line is tapered & is constructed of twisted thread. This aids turn-over when casting, particularly casting into the wind. However, because it is quite the butt section is relatively heavy, furled lines sag when the rod is held high to hold line off the water in order to avoid drag & as a result it is much harder to hold all the line & most of the tippet off the water.
I prefer very light level lines, 0.35mm diameter/15lb copolymer (Ultima Seastrike or Red Ice) which as Paul says are much harder to cast with but are far easier to hold up off the water when 'High Sticking".
The only time I use furled lines is when it is very windy & I can't hold the rod up. Nevertheless a furled line is certainly an easier starter line & I'd go for one 2 to 3' (0.6 to 1m) shorter than the rod to which I'd add 3' of tippet for dry fly or 3 to 5' of tippet for nymphing.
Where are you based Mike? If its not too far from East Yorkshire I'd be happy to show you the set-ups that I use & you could try them.
Dave
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Post by daves on Aug 31, 2013 7:09:34 GMT
Just seen on your other thread that you'r in Midlothian, a bit far from Driffield!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 10:23:53 GMT
Thanks for the help on this folks, me I'm based just outside Edinburgh, and just getting back to tenkara fishing so needed some advice about lines,
So once again thank you very much
Cheers mike
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Post by Paul G on Aug 31, 2013 12:13:23 GMT
I'd also say that it helps to realise that level lines are rated according to their mass. This is not calculated for a standardised length of line (as it would be for the AFTM rating of a fly line). Instead it is simply a combination of the density of the material and its diameter. So a thicker line of dense material will have a higher number rating than a thinner line of the same material. Similarly, for a given diameter, a less dense material will have a lower rating when compared to a denser material.
Furled, tapered lines do not tend to be rated (possibly, in part, since their mass changes along their length - although they certainly do differ in mass and bulk depending on the material that they are made out of and also the design of the taper). The thing to note about tapered, furled lines is that, by definition, they are heaviest at the end that is closest to the rod tip (in order to aid turnover). This has implications if you want to hold the line off the water - as it will tend to droop vertically down from the rod tip (and reduce your reach) throughout the thickest butt section. There is also a very large variation in the suitability of various furled lines depending on whether they have been specifically designed for tenkara by knowledgeable and experienced tenkara practitioners (and also just the inherent preferences of different furled line makers).
Going back to level lines: There are differences in density between different kinds of materials (with copolymer being the least dense and some very specialised lines made out of titanium wire for extremely windy conditions being the densest). Even the different brands of fluorocarbon differ in both density and also how "soft" or "wirey" they are depending on manufacturing process.
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Post by daves on Aug 31, 2013 13:24:05 GMT
With low cost copolymer lines it is possible to buy a range of line weights/diameters & give them a try to find out which works for you. I've tried 0.35mm, 0.38mm, 0.45mm & 0.50mm copolymer sea lines . The thicker lines are harder to hold off the water & need more stretching to remove memory if the line has been coiled round Fuji EZ clips. I keep going back top 0.35mm copolymer in preference to heavier copolymer or fluorocarbon.
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Post by daves on Aug 31, 2013 13:27:54 GMT
There's a table of line weights for level copolymer & fluorocarbon lines in the RODS & LInes section, thread - Level Line Size Diameter & Weight, which may be of some help. As for furled lines, I find the Rod Dibble lines (now made by Luke Bannister & available through Esoteric Tackle or the Grayling Society) to be very good & well balanced to all my Tenkara rods.
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Post by cm_stewart on Aug 31, 2013 13:34:21 GMT
I am a bit concerned that all the talk about furled lines being easier to cast will make people try them first and then never go on to fishing with a level line. If your casting form is good, level lines are extremely easy to cast. What's more, they are much easier to actually catch fish with! For someone just starting out, I believe it would be well worth your while to learn proper casting form from the very beginning.
A level line is no more than a length of fluorocarbon or copolymer or nylon with a rod tip on one end and tippet and fly on the other. Fluorocarbon, being denser than copolymer or nylon, will retain it's momentum better than the others, making it a better choice for if there is any breeze at all or for longer casts. With shorter lines or dead calm days they'll all work fine.
The reason I so strongly urge you to use level line is that it is lighter than furled line, which makes it easier to hold off the water's surface. That makes it much easier to get a natural drift and will generate more strikes. Since the line is both A) lighter and B) in the air, it will register those strikes much, much easier than a heavier line trapped in the water. More strikes and better strike detection gives level line a pretty solid advantage in my opinion.
It may take a little longer to learn to cast it well, but the time spent learning proper form will not be wasted. It isn't a huge time difference either - minutes, not weeks - and it will yield hundreds if not thousands more fish than staying with a heavier line that casts easily but fishes poorly.
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Post by daves on Aug 31, 2013 13:43:06 GMT
Excellent point Chris.
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Post by Paul G on Aug 31, 2013 17:08:07 GMT
Agreed - and worth noting that fluorocarbon level lines are much easier to feel loading the rod and also cast much better than copolymer lines within the middle of the range diameters that you'd use.
Copolymer can be easier to get to float - when considering the higher diameters - than fluorocarbon (if you want to lay line on the water). However this differential all but disappears with lines rates at #2.5 and below; and is essentially negligible at #3. Whilst this is the case, it still seems to be much easier to cast a lightly-rated fluorocarbon level line than the copolymer equivalent mass of copolymer (possibly due to a disproportionate increase in surface area to be affected by air resistance that comes with the increased diameter required to achieve the same weight).
The kicker is, of course, that copolymer is extremely cheap and is easy to float in any diameter and can be held off the water well in thicker diameters.
That being said, all my tenkara lines are now fluorocarbon because for me they just perform so much better. If you need to hold more line off the water - you just go for a lighter-rated fluorocarbon line; and it will cast much better than the copolymer of the same mass. This difference in cast-ability becomes more marked as you get more into the long level line techniques.
As with all fishing, it is then about working out what style of fishing(and the kind of flies/associated presentations) you will be doing for most of the time, on which particular venues, under which particular conditions. That will help to make clear what setups you will enjoy the most.
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Post by adric on Aug 31, 2013 19:13:23 GMT
Furled, tapered lines do not tend to be rated (possibly, in part, since their mass changes along their length - although they certainly do differ in mass and bulk depending on the material that they are made out of and also the design of the taper). The thing to note about tapered, furled lines is that, by definition, they are heaviest at the end that is closest to the rod tip (in order to aid turnover). This has implications if you want to hold the line off the water - as it will tend to droop vertically down from the rod tip (and reduce your reach) throughout the thickest butt section. There is also a very large variation in the suitability of various furled lines depending on whether they have been specifically designed for tenkara by knowledgeable and experienced tenkara practitioners (and also just the inherent preferences of different furled line makers). . Just one point furled lines may not have the thickest part at the butt end but may be double or forward tapered. I make mine to be forward tapered with the thickest part just over half way down the line. Richard
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Post by Paul G on Aug 31, 2013 21:47:26 GMT
Good point Richard and thanks for flagging it up. It is highly pertinent to say that "not all furled lines are equal" !!
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Post by paul1966 on Aug 31, 2013 23:48:25 GMT
I think Chris makes a good point too it's best to learn from scratch to cast a level line. You'll definitely catch more fish.
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Post by orangeotter on Sept 1, 2013 18:20:47 GMT
Hi Mikey, everyone's making good observations but no-one has mentioned colour. Can I tell you my own observations over 18 months.
I was very keen on furles but went over to level Fluoro this Summer due to the points made in these recent postings.
I started with BMS camo'#3.5 by Esoteric and found it very good. It has several colours but I can only see the orange with any clarity - still a good line though. I was happy with it until a friend bought some very hot orange from TenkaraUSA and it certainly solved the visibility problem. The downside was that both our catch rates plummeted. Talking to others, they have seen fish moving away as the leader passed over them so it obviously scared them. I tried to counter this but tying a 3ft section of BMS onto the orange to distance it from the fly. It seemed better but catches weren't what I was used to.
A while ago,Daniel from Esoteric sent me a sample of a Yamatoyo leader which I tried and was impressed with but I stuck with the camo' BMS. Because of the recent perceived problems with hot orange I once again tried the Yamatoyo and can say that it's fabulous. It casts like a bullet !. In the coil it's yellow but when extended looks a mid fluoro' green which is highly visible but not so bright as the orange.
I've now been using it for 2 weeks and my catch rate has shot back up so needless to say, I'm sold on it. You need to remember that rivers at this time of year are carrying plenty of streamer weed, certainly the Welsh Dee is it doesn't look too alien.
I'm sure there's plenty more helpful info' to come for you but colour is vital !
Good luck..
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