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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 3:16:43 GMT
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Post by myotis on Aug 20, 2012 8:25:24 GMT
John,
There have been a couple of posts here about this, but they didn't last long.
For me, having looked at the Japanese videos, and read around what people have been saying, pure tenkara seems to be a technique of using a fixed length line, held off the water to prevent drag wih a single sub surface fly which is worked in regular pulses to instill movement.
Most of that is identical to British Upstream wet fly fishing with spiders, except the soft hackles of spiders, are meant to work by moving in the current, so there is less need to instill movement compared to Tenkara.
So for me, I see no reason why you couldn't fish Tenkara with a rod and reel, albeit less effectively, as long as you were following the appropriate technique.
Equally, even if you are using a Tenkara rod, if you are dry fly fishing, or Spider fishing or Czech nymphing, you still aren't fishing Tenkara, you are just using a Tenkara rod.
Cheers,
Graham
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Post by adric on Aug 20, 2012 9:17:00 GMT
lets not get side tracked by angels on a pin head type discussions of what is and is not Tenkara. The aim of all fly fishing is to present a fly effectivly to the fish and if a tenkara set up does this that is great. If a more traditional set up is more effective use that.
Ricard
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Post by myotis on Aug 20, 2012 10:02:14 GMT
lets not get side tracked by angels on a pin head type discussions of what is and is not Tenkara. The aim of all fly fishing is to present a fly effectivly to the fish and if a tenkara set up does this that is great. If a more traditional set up is more effective use that. Ricard But isn't that the point, we learn, and communicate, different techniques: dry fly, wet fly Czech nymphing, tenkara, which we then couple with appropriate equipment long rods, short rods, slow rods, fast rods, to make our fishing more effective and enjoyable. Usually, when you ask someone about their fishing preferences, they say they prefer dry fly fishing, or spider fishing or whatever, and it immediately communicates something about the way they fish. They don't say " I fish a 4wt" If someone answers, I fish Tenkara, unless we have an understanding of tenkara as a "method" we are no further forward in understanding anything about how they fish: it could be dry fly, czech nymphing or indeed tenkara. It also matters when we have at least two fly fishing only rivers in the UK who have now apparently banned Tenkara. And the latest issue of Fly Fishing and Fly tying, for the second month in a row has another derogatory letter on Tenkara, which indicates he know nothing about how fly fisherman use tenkara rods. As I have mentioned in another post, when you watch the Oliver Edwards video on upstream wet fly fishing, he could easily be using a Tenkara rod, and he even goes as far as telling you not to touch the reel. So for me, as I said in the last post, if I someone is dry fy fishing, or spider fishing, even if they are using a Tenkara rod (as the best tool for the job) they aren't fishing Tenkara, they are still dry fly fishing or spider fishing. So I fully agree with you about choosing the approach that works, but I also think its useful, and even important that we know what we mean when we use the term fishing 'Tenkara'. I certainly don't think you can allow the absence of a reel to become the defining component (not that you said that of course). Graham
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Post by Paul G on Aug 20, 2012 18:55:56 GMT
This is an interesting one for me - and is probably an unusual case of my response depending on the standpoint of the person who was making a statement about what is, or is not, Tenkara.
For instance, if someone is basically saying "Yeah, Tenkara is nonsense - it is just a re-packaging of French nymphing, Czech nymphing, pole fishing (ugh), dapping (ugh)" etc. then i would be tempted to say "Yeah - but none of that is really Tenkara".
However, if someone was to say "Hey dude, what are you doing using level line/weighted flies/carbon rods/two flies (or whatever) - that's not Tenkara", then I'd probably have less sympathy; because its probably just an attempt to rain on someone else's parade.
BUT - having said all that, I think it is really important (and we owe it to ourselves) to learn as much as we possibly can about the rich tapestry of Japanese techniques, regional variations and developments that come (however loosely) under the umbrella of Tenkara. This way, we can have a credible idea about what is a strand of activity inherited from traditional practitioners and what are our own adaptations and hybridisations.
I believe this last point is true - even when you decide that you love using tenkara gear in a way that is non-traditional and that you enjoy above all other options. It is particularly true if you want to pass a critique on other people's activities!
However, the million dollar question "What is Tenkara?" does not have a valid, quantifiable single definition. "Tenkara" is a context dependent entity and, is perhaps best characterised in qualitative terms as consisting of an (open ended) number of philosophical as well as tactical concepts.
Yes - it does mean fishing with a fixed line, no reel, using casting loops to propel an artificial fly as a means of catching fish. However, it also implies a veneration of simplicity as well as of skilful manipulation of few (generic) flies to meet a variety of imitative needs. This contrasts with the alternative of using larger collections of more elaborate gear and reliance on extensive ranges of flies that incorporate a range of dressing techniques (rather than manipulation techniques) to achieve the right impression of an acceptable food form.
Beyond that, it is really just an exercise in semantics (for example, "true" tenkara would be catch and kill for anglers fishing for a living - if we were silly enough to make a rigidly dogmatic interpretation).
You will always be able to find a never-ending supply of people who say "That is not Tenkara" - both in its native Japan and elsewhere around the globe. I think that in most cases it would be far more correct to modify that sentiment to "That is not MY Tenkara".
So, what I would vote for is that people arm themselves with understanding of where Tenkara has come from and then feel free to do whatever they enjoy (and is within local rules and guidelines). That way we can continue to add to the already incredibly rich canon of tactics, potential experiences and the resultant cherished memories.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 19:20:40 GMT
For me Tenkara is a starting point. It has shown me a way of fly fishing that is not gear dependent, or bank account dependent! I take so little to the river with me these days but still have the wonder of catching wild fish with man made fly representations. Today has been an eye opening day on the river Lambourn. Water so clean and the bottom soft gravel .. it's not the Don ..lol I'm sure every Tenkara Master has their own way of fishing .. that's what makes them a Master i suppose ... Less heart searching more fishing ...
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Post by myotis on Aug 20, 2012 19:36:29 GMT
Paul,
Is there really a rich tapestry of techniques that even loosely come under Tenkara, whenever this crops up, the Japanese Tenkara masters seem to say that anything outside a fairly narrow definition isn't Tenkara.
I'm not saying this should restrict you in any way as to how you choose to use your Tenkara equipment or indeed develop your own personal fishing philosophy, but should there really be as much confusion over what Tenkara is, as there seems to be.
Graham
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 19:50:17 GMT
Define Western style fly fishing ...... in less than 5000 words .... Tenkara will eventually find its greatest enemies in the traditional fly fishing product supply companies. What ! you don't need 4 rods, 3 reels, 20 different lines and 200 different flies. How will the Orvis, Hardy's etc respond to a form of fly fishing that will reduce their turnover dramatically .... I wonder how much influence has been exerted already on the rivers that have banned Tenkara ... .Frightened of losing sales at their tackle shop ? Losing their features in adverts paid for by tackle manufactures ?? I wish to register the first conspiracy theory on the site ...
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Post by myotis on Aug 20, 2012 20:51:04 GMT
Landsurfer,
I’m not sure there is much purpose in defining western fly fishing as its made up of many different styles of fishing. And indeed, in Japan, the vast majority of fly fisherman are still using the 4 rods, 3 reels etc approach just as we do here. Tenkara is a minority pursuit in Japan.
I will however try and define fly fishing:
“To catch fish using an unweighted hook dressed to copy a natural food item, which is attached to a line and rod, and relies on the weight of the line and the action of a rod to propel the hook into areas where fish are thought to be feeding”
We know how Orvis has reacted as they are now stocking TenkaraUSA equipment and TFO who I hadn’t heard of until now, but massive in the states, are now making and selling their own Tenkara rods.
I suspect based comments from forums both here and America that the bans have more to do with a misunderstanding of Tenkara and that the lack of a reel means that most see Tenkara as bait fishing with a fly, which could just as easily be a maggot or a worm, and as such nothing to do with fly fishing.
Graham
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Post by Paul G on Aug 21, 2012 9:09:22 GMT
Paul, Is there really a rich tapestry of techniques that even loosely come under Tenkara, whenever this crops up, the Japanese Tenkara masters seem to say that anything outside a fairly narrow definition isn't Tenkara. I'm not saying this should restrict you in any way as to how you choose to use your Tenkara equipment or indeed develop your own personal fishing philosophy, but should there really be as much confusion over what Tenkara is, as there seems to be. Graham I really think that there is quite a rich diversity Graham. The patchy regional pockets of independent development seem to, historically, have thrown up these nice localised idiosyncrasies. If a particular individual practitioner strongly feels that one or other of those styles "is not Tenkara" then I feel it is up to them to give a revised name to what those styles are - because they are certainly as not well described by the catch all "kebari tsuri" as they are "tenkara".
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Post by myotis on Aug 21, 2012 10:07:23 GMT
Thanks Paul, it's all very interesting, and I admit my information is limited to the readily available blogs/videos etc that abound now. But it certainly doesn't seem to be restricted to one particular practitioner, but I am relying on other people to translate the Japanese.
It does seem that recreational Tenkara for the want of a better description is a relatively recent thing, and I wonder if that has developed an elitism as we have seen here in the past with say for example dry fly fishing.
Maybe, there is now a dominant Tenkara "club" who have their own ideas of a narrow Tenkara method and that is the one we see when we look at interviews/videos from Japan. If you watch the sometimes very long videos of Tenkara "meets" in Japan, everyone is fishing the same style.
I have been reading a lot of classic "fly fishing" literature recently: Webster, Stewart, Cutcliffe etc and many have chapters on worm, maggot, minnow "parr tail" etc fishing. However, this seems to be ignored and they are promoted as exemplar fly fisherman, and this variety of techniques used is lost to history. Well maybe not exemplar, but you know what I mean.
I still think if we want to ensure its survival in "fly fishing only" waters we need to agree a definition that clearly places it as a "style" of fly fishing, that fits in neatly with other styles like upstream wet fly or Czech nymphing
Fly fishing styles where, the reel is a mostly irrelevant part of the kit and the modern loop/Tenkara rod by avoiding the constraints of reel fittings and rod rings gives a rod/line set up not only ideally suitable for Tenkara fly fishing but also these other styles of fly fishing.
The association of not using a reel with bait fishing seems to be a great psychological barrier for many fly fisherman in accepting Tenkara rods as valid fy fishing tools.
I have been astonished at the aggression towards Tenkara in forums and magazines.
In contrast to this, it has been Tenkara that finally gave me the push to get back to fly fishing, it never crossed my mind that it could be perceived as not being fly fishing.
Mmm, this has developed into a bit of ramble, but I will leave it as it is.
Graham
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 10:34:23 GMT
One of the things that stopped me taking up tenkara sooner was the anti western fly rhetoric I saw in almost every tenkara article, video, advert and so on.
Everywhere you look the western fly bashing is there, I got so sick of reading it I almost gave up on tenkara before I even started. If there is some anti tenkara feeling about then tenkara enthusiasts only have themselves to blame.
At the end of the day Tenkara USA introduced tenkara to the US from Japan and it has (like most things) floated across here. The western fly bashing started long before any negativity towards tenkara.
I read a lot of nonsense about western fly fishing and how expensive, inconvenient and ineffective it is compared to tenkara and the benefits of tenkara are so overly exaggerated that it's no wonder western anglers are turning against it.
There's almost a smugness about some of the articles I've read that scoffs at the ridiculous amount of tackle western anglers use, this is not only offensive to many but it's simply inaccurate, the only additional piece of equipment I take fishing is a small reel, it's hardly weighing me down.
I realise people are enthusiastic about tenkara (I am too) but we are at risk of alienating the majority of fly anglers. If the mainstream angling media have turned against tenkara already then you can just about forget it as anything more than a very small niche.
If tenkara enthusiasts continue to offend western fly anglers then it'll be game over in my opinion. At the end of the day tenkara threw the first stone and now the gloves are off.
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Post by myotis on Aug 21, 2012 11:00:06 GMT
Troutfly,
I have to agree with this, and I find a lot of the zealous rhetoric about Tenkara vs modern Western fishing uncomfortable and incorrect.
Before my recent fishing resurrection, and many years ago, I did all my river fishing with one rod, one reel, one line and three dry flies (blue dun in 14 and 16, and a black spider in size 16) as did my grandfather before me. Western fishing is as simple or as complex as you want to make it.
Interestingly I now have three tenkara rods and want a 14ft one as well !! Also at the risk of being banished, I have just bought a new fly reel. Shame I'm not actually getting out fishing :-(
However, I get the feeling that the root of the anti-tenkara arguments I have come across are not reacting to the too much equipment less effective accusations, but more to the similarity of the rods to a bait fishing whip, and the negative views that many fly fisherman have about bait fishing.
Graham
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Post by Paul G on Aug 21, 2012 14:35:36 GMT
I think some very good points come out in this thread (especially regarding possible roots of rejection of Tenkara by some commentators or angling clubs).
I suspect that a way of having a non "confrontational" and objective representation of tenkara (that places it firmly as a branch of fly fishing) will be an increase of high quality video clips on the internet. For the UK specifically, it would be great to have such clips generated in unmistakeably british and irish settings.
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Post by myotis on Aug 21, 2012 15:03:09 GMT
I suspect that a way of having a non "confrontational" and objective representation of tenkara (that places it firmly as a branch of fly fishing) will be an increase of high quality video clips on the internet. For the UK specifically, it would be great to have such clips generated in unmistakeably british and irish settings. I agree with this, but I also think its really good the way that JP has dealt with it in his Total Flyfisher series, where he isn't making a big thing of Tenkara. He just treats it as option, alongside other options for fishing in particular circumstances and with some of the photographs showing Tenkara rods and others showing rods with reels. Graham
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